lol

AD&D 2nd edition was a great system - until it was forced to grow and make things it couldn't do. (the complete handbook series... ) It's not Rolemaster, it's not GURPS, not Palladium. It's AD&D 2nd Edition and you can have a lot of fun playing within its limits while pushing them once in a while. It depends on the type of game you and the other players like to play. Choose your game system accordingly. I love the AD&D basic rules. My players hated them , so we switched again to Star Wars, Shadowrun and Saga. Game rules define the game world. Real world rules don't apply.

I pretty much grew up with AD&D 2e. I bought pretty much all the Complete books, wrote countless pages of setting and NPCs, and played actively for all of the Nineties. And then I got sick of it and stopped, switching to other systems. Since then I've played dozens of systems, countless campaigns, and been active in gaming organizations. Then, trying my hand at running D&D 3.5 (played plenty, never run the system myself), I thought to myself, "In 2e, this grapple could've been solved with a single roll." This gave me pause. I started to think about what I liked about RPGs, and 'flexibility' turned up as the answer. The idea is to create stories without knowing how they'll end, to give life to worlds for the fun of it, to make personal choices based on how interesting they are, to define your own boundaries and then gleefully break them. I came to the realization that D&D 3.x is a tactical boardgame with non-combat abilities slapped on as an afterthought. The rules attempt to cover every eventuality and are worded with precision bordering on legalese. The DM is tacitly expected to follow the rules just as the players are. The game tried to be fair. Now, don't get me wrong, it's a fun tactical boardgame, but a boardgame nonetheless. You can play it with a roleplaying attitude, but you can do the same to Monopoly. Then I had a bit of a ponder about my childhood friend, AD&D 2e. What makes it more of an RPG than its successor, and why did I - like so many others - stop playing it. My main conclusion was that we took the damn thing too seriously! We forgot that optional rules are optional, and that games don't have to be 'fair' to be fun. If you look at the core of 2e, you find that the system is very simple. Now for many this came to mean that the action, too, had to be simple. But they forgot that the rules were meant to be a skeleton fleshed out as needed by the DM's imagination. The action would gain its flair from the players' descriptions and the suspense of execution from the bonuses and penalties the DM thought reasonable. This system is asymmetrical, and makes no guarantees of fairness, but it allows for a smooth flow of action where rules are subordinate to story. Thus inspired, I ran a few games of AD&D 2e to players who had never tried out D&D in any variety, and had a go. Using age-old notes and a re-browsing of the musty books that defined much of my adolescence as inspiration, I cobbled together a few adventures and off we went to the swamps, the mountain caves, the deep forests and the ruined castle, and had a blast! Free to improvise answers to mechanical questions, the game didn't bog down, and no one felt the need to consult a book on what is possible and what is not. I've run 2e since several times at local gaming events, and never had a shortage of participants. Even though it's been a couple of years since I ran it last, I still get asked if there's a game of 2e in the offing come MaraCon. Gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling, that. So, long story short: it was never about the game, it was about us. Ps. If you want to capture the feel of AD&D 2e with brand new (as opposed to just re-worked) rules, check out Dungeon World. The rules have been published at http://book.dwgazetteer.com/.

Totally agree, MuadMouse your story is identical to mine, I started with second edition and then ... many years and dozens of rpg systems after i still prefer AD&D

My Friday night group is still playing 2e. We tried 3e, we tried 4e, but 2e fits our playstyle much better. We're also playtesting 5e, but we won't make any final decisions on that until it's published.

It's nice to see 2e is still seeing action! No RPG deserves to be forgotten. I'm curious to know, what do you good people make of the Complete Books? It seems to be a divisive issue. Personally, I loved them back then, and I still appreciate them now. Even when running other systems, I often return to them for inspiration. Especially the Complete Bard's Handbook has seen a lot of use, particularly because of the personality generator. But I must say the ones I get the most use out of are the Complete Books on Elves, Dwarves, and Gnomes & Halflings. although grossly unbalanced mechanics-wise, they each give invaluable insight into the culture of each race, pointing out exactly what makes them more than funny-looking humans. Whenever I'm creating a demihuman character for any fantasy gaming, I invariably think back to those guides and their accounts of what it takes to not be human. What, if anything, did you get out of the supplements? Did you read them at all? Are they relevant to you beyond the bounds of AD&D 2e?

We don't worry about balance. If a source contributes to the fun and creativity, we use it. If a particular rule is overpowered or doesn't fit our world view on how things should work, we toss it out. Since we've been playing the campaign I'm now DMing (the two previous DMs have passed away) for 30 years, we're pretty comfortable with the system. One of our Paladins is using something from the Complete Paladin, one of the mages is using stuff from Complete Elves, and we've hauled in stuff from various magazines. I haven't personally read all of them, but when someone wants to use something I read that pretty thoroughly so I know what he and I are getting into. I once had an RP session in a NWN persistent world -- my Elf mage and his Human paladin -- and we spent about four hours (real time) talking about the various cultures so each could understand the other better. I think that's one of the best RP talks I've ever had. And a lot of what the characters brought up came from those books.

That's very true: the balance issue is not really an issue, the whole thing can be managed by tossing a bonus proficiency or two toward the weaker kits. But it is a pity I've heard griping about this from some corners, but then again, those have mostly been people who ended up preferring 3e and take all that's written there as gospel. 2e definitely promotes house rules more than 3e (and I suppose 4e as well, but I've played that only once). 3e is a network of rules, 2e more a blunt object of guidelines.

Supplements I used most : Encyclopedia Magica (the 4 volumes) Tome of Magic The complete: The wizard handbook The cleric handbook The warrior handbook the dwarf handbook

That's an interesting list, Ardac. I never did end up using the The Complete Priest's Handbook very much. Now that I think back, I'm not quite sure why. It might be because I crafted specialty priests based on those presented in Greyhawk: From the Ashes and Legends & Lore before I bought Complete Priest. Regardless, specialty priests deserve special mention! I loved the idea that priests of different gods can be fundamentally different in terms of game mechanics, not just healing machines with anti-undead applications in slightly different flavours (the one thing that has irked me most in Pathfinder; I understand there are now other options, though). Anyhow, I'm curious to know: what made you use Complete Priest so much? Also, how much optional combat rules out of The Complete Fighter's Handbook did you use? In the group I played in back in the day we used them quite a bit, but then we were pretty rules-oriented back then; nowadays, when I run AD&D I prefer to come up with resolution mechanics on a case-by-case basis. And what made The Complete Book of Dwarves more useful than the other Complete Race supplements? Oh, I should dig up some of the dwarf strongholds I churned out of the random generator in Complete Dwarf. I planned a nice little mini-campaign purely on the basis of two such strongholds (well, settlements, really) but never got to use it properly. The stronghold generator is definitely one of my favourite AD&D toys - then again, put a functioning random generator of any gaming-related sort in front of me and I'm like a kitten on catnip! =)

We used those handbooks for the KITS and spheres of influence for the clerics. My best moments were when I used my War Priest (Conan Style) and at the table someone take a Pacifist Priest... In my former group each DM created a continent with all that implies, geography, geopolitics etc. We gave it an influence according with what we liked at the time, one of Greyhawk, another LOTR, Conan, etc. So the Kits came in handy as we finally had some rules to give more meaning to different characters, also some boundaries. We also had our characters sheet of our own creation

Updated 6 April 2013 (01:23)

Yep, back in the day there WAS no official character sheet. Besides, if you want something done right, it's best to do it yourself! Kits always ended up rather a minor point with priests - the specialty priest abilities and Spheres always defined them so much more. But, yeah, kits are wonderful! Kits were the one thing I missed most when my old group* transferred to D&D 3e. Prestige classes tried to do the same, but they were only available at mid-level at the earliest, often making them nonsensical to take based on backstory. Kits give that nice bit of mechanical support for various character backgrounds, and I'm glad to see them reinstated, in the form of 'archetypes', in Pathfinder. We never played in homebrew settings, which is a pity. I was cooking up a setting of my own once, but then decided that it wouldn't work very well with AD&D; but then, I was getting a bit fed up with level-based systems, turning my focus onto Cyberpunk 2020. Perhaps I'll have another look at my custom game world at some point, but now I'm too busy impro world-building with Dungeon World. Did the continents you created occupy the same world? I haven't been properly involved in a collaborative setting until very recently, when one of the players in my Dungeon World group started a campaign set in another part of the game world I had introduced. It's proving to be an intriguing experience, and it'll be interesting to see how the two concurrent campaigns influence each other. Regardless of my aforementioned experience, I do think that AD&D 2e is very supportive of homebrew settings. The core mechanics are so solid that it can be twisted every which way without breaking, assuming the group isn't afraid to think outside of them. I should probably see if my setting wasn't viable for AD&D after all and merely became an innocent victim of my adolescent need to reject the old to make way for the new.

*) note that the group is by no means gone; in fact, we're playing D&D 3e again tomorrow!
A committed user and abuser of roleplaying games. Based in Oulu, Finland.

Posted by MuadMouseYep, back in the day there WAS no official character sheet. Besides, if you want something done right, it's best to do it yourself!

Especially when the money we had was very limited

Posted by MuadMouseKits always ended up rather a minor point with priests - the specialty priest abilities and Spheres always defined them so much more. But, yeah, kits are wonderful!Kits were the one thing I missed most when my old group* transferred to D&D 3e. Prestige classes tried to do the same, but they were only available at mid-level at the earliest, often making them nonsensical to take based on backstory. Kits give that nice bit of mechanical support for various character backgrounds, and I'm glad to see them reinstated, in the form of 'archetypes', in Pathfinder.

before 3 edition we try to do something with Skill & Powers, but was a shock, too many bizarre characters

Posted by MuadMouseWe never played in homebrew settings, which is a pity. I was cooking up a setting of my own once, but then decided that it wouldn't work very well with AD&D; but then, I was getting a bit fed up with level-based systems, turning my focus onto Cyberpunk 2020. Perhaps I'll have another look at my custom game world at some point, but now I'm too busy impro world-building with Dungeon World.

Has its pros and cons, usually only the DM knew thoroughly his/her continent ... an advantage for the DM disadvantage for players.

After AD&D we alternated with Shadowrun, Star Wars D6 until we fell in Vampire, then I continued with Planescape, In Nomine by Steve Jackson, etc...

Posted by MuadMouseDid the continents you created occupy the same world? I haven't been properly involved in a collaborative setting until very recently, when one of the players in my Dungeon World group started a campaign set in another part of the game world I had introduced. It's proving to be an intriguing experience, and it'll be interesting to see how the two concurrent campaigns influence each other.

Is very interesting, it has available an immense territory and kept the feeling of new.

There were times where there were wars between continents, or the evil territories/cities came together to try to conquer the world ... the typical ...

I'm reading now about dungeon world ... never heard of it

Posted by MuadMouseRegardless of my aforementioned experience, I do think that AD&D 2e is very supportive of homebrew settings. The core mechanics are so solid that it can be twisted every which way without breaking, assuming the group isn't afraid to think outside of them. I should probably see if my setting wasn't viable for AD&D after all and merely became an innocent victim of my adolescent need to reject the old to make way for the new.

It was my first RPG system, so I have much affection, despite some discussion of "how realistic" system was

Posted by MuadMouse*) note that the group is by no means gone; in fact, we're playing D&D 3e again tomorrow!

envy, I have only time to rp by forum

Updated 6 April 2013 (02:52)

Posted by Ardacbefore 3 edition we try to do something with Skill & Powers, but was a shock, too many bizarre characters

Yep, retrofitting a GURPS-inspired character customization tool onto a system is a tricky business. I'd left 2e by the time it came out, but from what I've heard it didn't work that well. It was a nice try though, and I suspect that the many munchkins and powergamers skulking in D&D circles might have been responsible for the poor response.

Is very interesting, it has available an immense territory and kept the feeling of new.There were times where there were wars between continents, or the evil territories/cities came together to try to conquer the world ... the typical ...

Ooh, I can see layers of game potential there!

I'm reading now about dungeon world ... never heard of it

It has earned its laurels, that's for sure! For anyone interested, they've published the rules at http://book.dwgazetteer.com/.

It was my first RPG system, so I have much affection, despite some discussion of "how realistic" system was

Yes, you never forget your first one, do you?

As for "realism", that's always been a stumbling block not so much for games but for gamers. I, too, was annoyed by 2e's "unrealism" back then, before I came to realize that games shouldn't aim for realism, but credibility! Instead of asking "Does the real world work like this?", I should've been asking "Does this make sense in the world I'm playing in?" Youth hath its follies.

envy, I have only time to rp by forum

I guess I better not describe my gaming schedule further, then. But I must say I'm lucky to have such a multitude of active roleplayers in my social circle.

And forum RPGs have their benefits. It gives you more time to some up with a coherent response, and you automatically produce a log from which to check what's happened before. I know this latter would be invaluable to me, my note-taking while running a game is haphazard at best. But then again, having started out playing old school games, my notes as a player tend to be ridiculously meticulous.

Posted by MuadMouseOoh, I can see layers of game potential there!

Is interesting, although some DM considered those continents as their babies ... and the players have not right to touch it, you can imagine when a city was besieged and destroyed by another DM...

Yes, you never forget your first one, do you?

you know it's true

As for "realism", that's always been a stumbling block not so much for games but for gamers. I, too, was annoyed by 2e's "unrealism" back then, before I came to realize that games shouldn't aim for realism, but credibility! Instead of asking "Does the real world work like this?", I should've been asking "Does this make sense in the world I'm playing in?" Youth hath its follies.

When we were in the Club teaching new players ..., oh we created the greatest RPG club of Venezuela, the first thing we said, the fun things first, you are the DM if a rule gets in your way, do not use it, no point wasting hours of playing time arguing over the rules, can you kill a dragon hitting it in a fingernail?, yes, but you had fun, right?

I guess I better not describe my gaming schedule further, then. But I must say I'm lucky to have such a multitude of active roleplayers in my social circle.

Smart players are rare to find, keep them in an airtight container

And forum RPGs have their benefits. It gives you more time to some up with a coherent response, and you automatically produce a log from which to check what's happened before. I know this latter would be invaluable to me, my note-taking while running a game is haphazard at best. But then again, having started out playing old school games, my notes as a player tend to be ridiculously meticulous.

The downside is that it is impersonal, you lose contact that there is at a table a weekend eating pizza, arguing that someone touched the dice without clean hands, turning DM screen when he is not watching, etc. but I've been lucky in this forum, the players I've had are the best you could ask for

Updated 6 April 2013 (13:08)

Posted by ArdacIs interesting, although some DM considered those continents as their babies ... and the players have not right to touch it, you can imagine when a city was besieged and destroyed by another DM...

Ouch! It's always a grim sight to see a GM encounter for the first time the simple, grim reality that it is the cosmic function of players to wreck and ruin all your best-laid plans and most beloved worlds!

When we were in the Club teaching new players ..., oh we created the greatest RPG club of Venezuela, the first thing we said, the fun things first, you are the DM if a rule gets in your way, do not use it, no point wasting hours of playing time arguing over the rules, can you kill a dragon hitting it in a fingernail?, yes, but you had fun, right?

A fine principle!

Smart players are rare to find, keep them in an airtight container

Here I must disagree. Not only are airtight containers likely to make them asphyxiate, but players should get as a broad a base of gaming experience as possible sothey can share what they've learned with their groups! That's how they become smart!

The downside is that it is impersonal, you lose contact that there is at a table a weekend eating pizza, arguing that someone touched the dice without clean hands, turning DM screen when he is not watching, etc. but I've been lucky in this forum, the players I've had are the best you could ask for

True, the social aspect is perforce restricted. I just came back home from 13 hours of intense gaming (and consumption of pizza and a variety of junk food) with the guys I've been playing with since I was a kid. I'm still all giddy about it!

I do hope you manage to fit face-to-face gaming back in your schedule at some point.

Posted by MuadMouseOuch! It's always a grim sight to see a GM encounter for the first time the simple, grim reality that it is the cosmic function of players to wreck and ruin all your best-laid plans and most beloved worlds!

yeah, I remember being designing a dungeon for two hours, and a very smart player convinced one of the enemies to guide her to the exit...

A fine principle!

It's just a game, enjoy, read the newspaper or listen to the politicians if you want to fight

Here I must disagree. Not only are airtight containers likely to make them asphyxiate, but players should get as a broad a base of gaming experience as possible sothey can share what they've learned with their groups! That's how they become smart!

lol, of course, you are right

True, the social aspect is perforce restricted. I just came back home from 13 hours of intense gaming (and consumption of pizza and a variety of junk food) with the guys I've been playing with since I was a kid. I'm still all giddy about it!

that's excellent

I do hope you manage to fit face-to-face gaming back in your schedule at some point.

thanks, a convention will soon be here, maybe get a few good players!, maybe even get back to organize a Tournament!

Updated 7 April 2013 (22:36)

Yes. I still play AD&D. I have never ceased in 25 years. We are currently running 3 Campaigns for 1st edition but I love 2nd as well. I actually prefer it far and above to todays versions of the game. We currently play in; 1 Mystara game, 1 Dragonlance Campaign, and one grey box Forgotten realms Campaign. We play on average 4-6 times per month and switch between games as each D.m. sees fit. Great fun!

Posted by BrightmantleWe currently play in; 1 Mystara game, 1 Dragonlance Campaign, and one grey box Forgotten realms Campaign.

Ooh, Dragonlance! One of my greatest gaming regrets is that the Dragonlance campaign we were planning back in the day fizzled before it started. The world seems so delightfully, well, D&D-ish! It's a straight-up high fantasy setting that keeps things simple and fun, and doesn't get bogged down in details (unlike, say, Forgotten Realms). Well, at least we had a number of Mystara campaigns.

I love that this thread was resurrected as I realize I'm not the only old school gamer on the site and I'm not the only old school user either. That being said, AD&D 2e., is table top for me as I never played anything else (although I did LARP for many years but that is, by definition, not table top). I started with D&D but our group quickly moved to AD&D 2e., and we never played any other system. The best times with my group were when we each claimed a realm and took turns playing DM. We'd host a short campaign in our realm before the Mists of Ravenloft moved our group to the next locale. We covered Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, Dragonlance and, my favourite, Ravenloft. At one point we decided to use every rule (not sure what we were thinking), but quickly dropped those rules that didn't work for us. Like many have said, we found the best fun of the game was the descriptions being delivered and the conversations between the characters and with NPC's. Thankfully we never had any rule mongers in our group and the game was always about having fun and taking part in the adventure. I'm a little jealous of those who've posted about their existing gaming groups. I haven't 'gamed' in any form for many years due to spouses, kids and generally moving in different directions than most of my gaming buddies. My 'gaming' now consists mainly of MMO's which most will know is short on the role play, but fills the gap nonetheless.

Updated 20 July 2013 (05:37)